Duration 44:36

Part 2 | My Husband George Farmer Debates Protestantism with Allie Beth Stuckey

by Candace Owens Podcast

190 934 watched

0

8.7 K

Published 8 May 2023

George and Allie continue their debate by discussing their beliefs on the role of Mary in Christianity, intercessory prayer, baptism, as well as their views on time, life, & death. - - - Click here to join The Daily Wire+: https://bit.ly/3DzN2Uj Pre-order your Jeremy's Chocolate here: https://bit.ly/3EQeVag - - - Today’s Sponsors: Hallow - Try Hallow for 3 months FREE: https://hallow.com/candace - - - Watch “The Greatest Lie Ever Sold: George Floyd and the Rise of BLM” exclusively on DailyWire+: https://bit.ly/3RCaUK1 Grab some “Yes We CANdace” merch: https://bit.ly/3TA0s6T 00:00 - Allie’s last thoughts on sola scriptura and her questions about Mary 03:45 - George on the position of Mary in the Catholicism 12:45 - Intercessory prayer in Catholicism and Protestantism 17:20 - Allie’s views on the modernizing of protestant churches 20:30 - Corruption in the church 23:45 - Allie on if she believes Catholics are saved 25:39 - Baptism 27:46 - What is grace? 33:42 - Is it faith or grace that saves you? 37:10 - Continuation on Baptism 41:11 - Final thoughts #CandaceOwens #News #Politics #Culture #PopCulture #DailyWire

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Comments - 6753

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@NormaHernandez-kb6zhlast year This is how religious conversations should be. No screaming, hating, no disrespect towards each other, just giving each other’s points of view and supporting them. I loved it. Very informative too. 1674
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@TrailBlazerAZlast year I met Candace when she was out with her husband (and one other person) at a restaurant that I was at the last time I was in Nashville. I tried not to crash their dinner so I approached before their food arrived - I was fan-girling so hard and SO nervous. She was SO NICE and so was her husband! She let me take a selfie with her. She was so down to earth and friendly. ... 821
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@margemohr6771last month I’ve been a Catholic since birth and I’m now 81 yrs old. George, you did an excellent job.👏👏👏Allie. Nice job too great discussion 49
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@ChildrenofMarySistrs4 days ago Candace, what a wonderful husband the Lord gave you! Thank God he came home, and you have come home, to the Church, for there is only Church, the one Jesus started. Praise You, Lord Jesus! May someday soon we all be united as one in love and Truth. ... 4
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@tiffanybooth1563last year Do more of this!! 45 minutes felt like 5 seconds!!! This could be an entire series! 512
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@Probity1009 months ago No shouting, disrespecting, just decent, mature & intellectual conversations, even when in disagreement. Love this 354
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@user-zc6tn6sn7y4 weeks ago And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the Saints, rose before God”(Rev8:4) 4
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@jessicaroopa2 months ago I have to agree with Allie. Scripture is what we use to confirm our faith and God's work and command in our life. I think we need to in duality with scripture cry out to God ourselves and with intention - fast and pray and seek clarity of God's plans and command in our lives and for us to interpret the word of God by the power of the Holy Spirit. We must not lean on our own understanding but ask God to reveal himself, pursue God from purity and sincerity in our hearts. ... 11
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@JamesExcell-InterJexlast year There is nothing more American than starting your own church.
I love being Catholic. 489
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@dakneeskatlast year Candace, I’ve always been a huge fan of yours. As a Catholic, now I’m a huge fan of your husband! He did a great job, and he has inspired me to become stronger in studying more about my faith. I hope he shows up more in Catholic realms to speak. He has a gift! Kudos! ... 228
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@amyward79763 months ago Candice, George and Allie
Thank you so much for this lovely and important discussion. I am 61 years old and your discussion answered a question as a Catholic that I NEVER knew I had. I took notes and you all gave me tools to dig deeper. I will say that my faith was deepened by this. Thank you all 🙏🏻❤️ ... 51
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@jaimekist96323 months ago I'm a Catholic convert and I'm learning so much!
I still have the Mary and saints hang up...
George does a fabulous job of explaining the church! 82
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@SoyPriscillaDeLaCruzlast year The more I study the catholic faith the more deep is my conviction. I’m so happy to be back home from the new age lies. 1204
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@Spinachtigerlast year I left Catholic church after high school, eventually 25 years in evangelical church. Learned the bible and then recently came back to the catholic church. Watching George with Matt Fradd was the final tipping point to make me return to catholic church. That, dreams God gave me, research into church history and frankly tired of the big show in the evangelical churches where very little bible is taught any more. ... 572
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@men.2763 months ago Protestantism is mostly black or white in its theology. What I love about Catholicism is that two things can be true at the same time. Both savation by Grace and the need for good works can BOTH be true with neither negating the other. I love being Catholic. (Former Protestant) ... 30
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@JanisTilyard2 months ago The thief on the cross was not baptised. He accepted Jesus in faith and by grace was saved. 88
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@fromlocuststolove3143last year Great discussion. I got saved and immediately became Protestant, after a year (recently) started looking into catholicism and became convinced. This just deepened my catholic faith even more! 233
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@ElizabethJackson-vv4hdlast year I am a Protestant convert . I can tell you that the True Presence has made the most profound impact in my life . I feel a joy and a peace in my soul that I was always searching for in my life . I will be praying for you during your most important quest for Truth ❤️ ... 103
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@kaylalee78614 months ago We are not the judges of who is saved. That’s the most important thing I learned from this video. God knows our heart and only He can determine our standing before Him 49
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@daniellittle39733 months ago I've just discovered this video. As a Greek Orthodox Christian, I would be interested in hearing your and your husband's views on Orthodoxy 15
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@cptsil90221last year Candice! My sister! You did amazing in marrying this man. I am Catholic. From my experience, there is no greater feeling then kneeling at the alter with the wife God gave me, by my side, and watching her receive the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus and then receive him myself. I kneel next to her at the pew and feel the oneness between us and Jesus. And for a few moments that oneness feels blissful, peaceful and a happiness that I never thought would be possible to experience. I fall in deep humility knowing I don't deserve it but God gives and desires it. ... 99
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@Taylor14Tnavalast year George, You did an amazing job at defending the history, fullness, and truth of our Catholic faith! 139
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@louparry77214 months ago I have never witnessed a conversation about scripture that was so profound and without argument. It was heart warming to see two obvious Christians have an honest discussion and have both entities remain composed, polite, and well versed on biblical knowledge. thank you for this conversation. Bravo, to both parties. Sincerely, Louise ... 21
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@Artshinedesign2 months ago Candace THANK YOU ! I m 57 the daughter of a Baptist Minister - went to Christian High School and College. I have seen so much hurt and division over doctrines. I believe if u pray w a heart reaching out to God that he hears us. Catholic or Protestant. I believe he knows and understands our heart even when we stray - he is w me. ... 22
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@dalyaa.8304last year George is truly brilliant. He needs his own podcast to spread his faith. Love being Catholic and encourage everyone to look into it before judging it based what you heard. 593
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@guyjorstad8417last year As a former Methodist now Catholic attending the Latin mass, I really appreciate the journey that you're going through. Sola scriptura ironically isn't mentioned anywhere in scripture; sola fida is directly contravened by James 2:24. Ultimately, I was convinced by the scriptural basis of Christ's flesh (real food) and blood (real drink) in the Eucharist. God gave me the same choice that the disciples had to make -- believe or walk away. I decided to believe and it was like scales fell from my eyes. If the protestants got that core truth wrong, what else did they get wrong? I can't say that it's always been easy or quick. But the effort has been the most worthwhile thing that I've done with my life. You'll be in my prayers. ... 81
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@daphnerobert-hamilton306612 hours ago I’m a recent revert to the Catholic Church. I like listening to conversion stories to help me on my learning journey.
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@cathydoughman68312 months ago I grew up in the Catholic Church and was not taught the true plan of salvation. As long as I was able to go to confession to confess a mortal sin before I died, I was ok. But what if I didn’t get to confession? I lived in fear constantly that I was not good enough to be saved. I thank God for people who explained God’s true plan of salvation to me. And this is it:
Believe that Jesus is God.
Believe that He died on a cross and rose to life after 3 days.
Believe He paid the price for my sins by doing that.
Scriptures tell us we need to repent (turn) from our sins.
Scripture tell us to get baptized.
That is the true plan of salvation.
I very much enjoyed listening to this honorable and respectful debate between George Farmer and Allie Beth Stuckey. It was the perfect example of how to have a debate. We’ve allowed hate to take away our ability to have necessary , honest exchanges of thoughts and ideas. Thank you Candace, George and Allie! I love you all and pray for all of you to keep sharing the truth and love of God. ... 25
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@alexaparr78587 months ago Wow, George’s knowledge of the faith and a Catholic Church is amazing! I thoroughly enjoyed hearing every response he had and hope he does more of this!!! Very proud of my catholic faith and we need more people like George speaking out and sharing their knowledge because the catholic faith is so deep and so complex that I think it is hard for a lot of people to understand when studying and reading on your own. Debating like this and sharing in his own words is so helpful in teaching others! ... 350
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@paterfamilias2410last year Keep in mind ,these discussions are not intended to convert either George or Allie. They are not going to be convinced by these arguments. These discussions are for those of us who are watching and are of Good Faith and Good Will, who are keeping our hearts open to reception of the truth. ... 239
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@newjerseylion4804last month To infant baptism doesn't make sense because infants do not understand faith or grace, they did not consent to baptism, they only know they are being duck in water. 11
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@jennyenniophotography3 months ago Gosh, I wish I could just sit and have a conversation with someone who is true to the faith like your husband so I could talk and fully understand. I am a Protestant, but I also love tradition. I bought a couple rosaries and then googled the prayers, but I was raised Baptist by someone who basically painted the Catholic Church as evil. As I grew up I saw people like Mother Teresa and then read her letters and I believe 100% that she was saved. I just want to sit with a catholic who is strong in their faith and ask questions. Thank you for this. ... 5
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@ooldddxkotlast year I was a cradle catholic from Indian catholic church founded by Thomas the Apostle. After immigrating to US I abandoned Catholic Church after listening to the TV preachers here. Many years after that my eyes were opened about the true faith and authenticity of the Catholic Church when I had an opportunity to visit an Iraqi Catholic Church in the US whi called themselves St. Thomas Christians because their church was founded by Thomas the Apostle . The part that was incredible to me was that their Catholic Mass and liturgy were exactly the same as my Indian Catholic Church founded by Thomas the Apostle in AD 52. ... 99
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@MathWithHeatherlast year Thank you George!!! You explained the Catholic faith so beautifully. 🙏 167
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@MirkoCavlast month First of all: im rly happy, that you guys were able to have a polite conversation that sets a benchmark for what a debate should look like. Ofc in this talk there is a big lack on important arguments, for example scriptural passages regarding intercession, regarding the question "are the saints dead?" and so on, but i think this was a good start for Christians who are trying to look into traidional Christianity.
After 15 years of Evangelicalism and the last 6 years being active in preaching ministry, i went back to the Holy Catholic Church and im so happy about it! The Church History and questions around Baptism, Authority, Eucharist and so on led me (and atm many others) back to the Catholic Church. I think God is moving big time at the moment, leading back many of us, including Candace! Congratulations and God bless! ... 2
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@pedinurse12 months ago Allie you did a great job. Even if my church said to ask Mary to pray for me I would not do it 4
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@domenical.2261last year please have your husband back for more Catholic discussions! This was fascinating! 160
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@lvx4408last year I am always blown away by the depth and beauty upon learning more about the Catholic faith, Catholic theology 77
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@JakeHansenMusic19963 months ago I love this conversation. On the topic of praying through Mary, i find this very different than asking a friend to pray for you. Often times when I’m asking a friend for prayers, i am still praying for myself while also believing that the faith of my friend is helpful. Both me and my friend who prays for me pray directly to God. Sometimes we pray together for each other, but still directly to God. ... 4
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@kenurakinglast month One owes its existence to the other , the other owes its existence to no other . 2
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@danspickslast year A part 3 would be awesome! Candace, I’ll keep your journey in my prayers. As a Catholic revert, (I drifted away for 20 years) I’d love to point you to some great resources, but I’m sure God will do a much better job. “Jesus, I trust in You” ... 197
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@kristinestewarthass5355last year George has incredible knowledge. His calm demeanor and thoughtful responses were inspired. 143
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@SierraNelson-fs5gt3 weeks ago "Then why ask people to pray for you at all?" Because we are instructed, by scripture, to pray for our brethren. 2
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@michaellemoine42083 months ago Excellent! Having them back for a part three and four would be great. There is a lot more that could be dicussed, especially because of the evil times that we are in!! Thanks!! 3
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@henriettaifewulu488last year I love the conversation. I follow Candace and Allie, so I sort of knew what to expect. This is the first time I’m listening to George Farmer speak, he is so knowledgeable and presents his points well. I’m Catholic, there are a lot of things about the church that are misunderstood and misinterpreted. ... 194
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@Real.y.last year Wow I loved to hear Candace’s husband speak. He made very good points from being a Protestant to now being Catholic!
We need more of Candace’s Husband ❣️ 130
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@CoraZa11313 weeks ago Minute
-- Pray "for" me is not equivalent to praying "to" me. 2
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@geoffjsone week ago Excellent George with your calm patient demeanour. Pray for Allie’s conversion!
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@katherinetyrrell8810last year I absolutely LOVE how calmly this discussion progresses. This is how real adults should discuss weighty matters. Candace, you married a brilliant, good man. :) 125
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@LindsayFeerlast year I can relate so much with Cadence. I marry a catholic man and for a long time I tried to reason with him about religion, even though I was sure that if we had children, our child should be baptized because it was important for him. I'm happy you are so open to it because like it was for me, you have the chance through your husband to really KNOW the catholic faith. After 29 years of being protestant, I'm now catholic. My conversion became possible because I was open to know, to study about it and in doing it I finally understood that religion have nothing to do with a feeling, like Luthero made it seems. Through the whole discussion, Allie measured the authority of the Pope and our priests by her standards, by herself. But they aren't just anyone, they dedicate their whole lives to Jesus, they are in State of Grace, we most of the time don't. She doesn't believe for a second that our priests have the clarity of the Holly Spirit. I can see now how presumptuous the protestant views are. "Salvation is mine to take", "No human can have more authority about my actions than me", "Mary was just a woman"... They can't fathom someone on this earth more deserving than themselves. I'm from Brazil and we have a famous priest named Father Paulo Ricardo that described perfectly what Luthero and Calvin did... he said that "Luthero should have throwed away the bath water, but he threw the baby instead". There is no right way out of the Catholic Apostolic Church, and that is made clear when nowadays we have pastors supporting abortion and same sex marriage. I hope you find your way home, Cadence. May God lead your way to Him. God bless you! ... 172
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@katarinam24344 months ago I loved this!
Hope there'll be part 2!!
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@jorgelazoflores94532 weeks ago Thank you very much for these debates, they make our faith stronger. I am a Protestant. 1
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@teresabringas4839last year Scott and Kimberly Hahn, former Protestants, faced these considerations. They met while studying at a Protestant seminary, married and he became a pastor. Eventually his conversion to the Roman Catholic faith prompted him to leave his position as a pastor. His wife’s journey took much more time. The subject of the Virgin Mary was for both like you Candace a difficulty. Both have written books and are very articulate and engaging in their journey home as they called it. Scott Hahn teaches at Steubenville University.
I encourage you and thank you for this inspiration of faith. Would so love more of this. Sorely needed today.
Thank you! ... 169
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@fungusbeeflast year I spent almost 4 decades in Protestantism, the last 10 years was in Reformed and high church traditions. I’m thankful for evangelicalism introducing me to Christ, I’m thankful for Reformed Presbyterianism for introducing me to sacramental and covenant theology, I’m thankful to Anglicanism for introducing me to the importance of liturgy and church history and I’m thankful for Catholicism for bringing all of these things together in the fullest possible way. ... 63
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@meganbradley23694 weeks ago The fact that Allie has her Bible open for reference speaks wonders 9
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@reneedalziel67212 months ago This 2-part discussion was fantastic! Thank you, Candace, for hosting these two wonderful people! 2
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@wbl5649last year This was so helpful. I left the Catholic Church in my late teens and became an Evangelical for 30 years. But I have reverted back to Catholism a year ago via studing early church history/church fathers and going to the Latin Mass. But being so steeped in Evangelicalism I still struggle a bit w/ some Catholic teaching, mainly Purgatory, I dont think i can ever accept that. But I can never go back to Protestantism, the Eucharist has captured me as I believe it is the Real Presence. ... 161
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@Kathy-cl2hslast year When I was a young girl going to a Catholic grade School, we went to Mass every morning..I was young and knew to be reverent when receiving Holy Communion. It was when I prayed the Rosary (thinking Abt. The life of Jesus) I felt a closeness to MARY And She brought me to Know and LOVE JESUS In a Way I cannot explain. Perhaps that's what a good Mother does.. ... 241
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@gerardogutierrez8342last month George with the knockout punch gym Catholics raise up! Keep learning blessings! 1
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@Bela.r.203 weeks ago George clearly studied the Bible, the history of the Church, and of Christianity. He studied different theologians and came well prepared. Allie, as sweet as she is, only brought her Bible knowledge. 1
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@obi_onekenobi5322last year "To be steeped in history,...is to cease to be Protestant." -- John Henry Cardinal Newman 141
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@carolynkarcher155last year Do a part 3!!!! And a part 4, while you are at it ;) This was awesome! 105
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@colombepetite2 weeks ago A very wonderful, and intellectual, mature conversation! I appreciate listening to mature people with different beliefs. 1
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@nancyrogers59505 months ago Great and respectful conversation. Alley did an amazing job and i agree with everything she said. 6
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@amandashindelar6407last year As a cradle Catholic, I loved this! George is so knowledgeable and was great in this debate! I pictured a mic drop when he said the Catholic Faith is "the fullness of truth"! He said so many important aspects of our faith! ... 85
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@nichmon322111 months ago I love the way Candace looks at her husband; she obviously admires him very much, as all couples should. 105
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@mushandsnowman29082 months ago Mary is just blessed not anything more than that.... 3
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@kasial2668last year I have to say Protestant church brought me to the Catholic church. Protestants explained many things in a simple way but there was always something missing, when I started reading more I got redirected to Catholic teachings, and ultimately I found the truth that does not change over time in Catholic church. I LOVE this conversation it is so much needed in today’s world to learn how to talk to each other with RESPECT even if your views are different! ... 60
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@terrilouviere7111last year This was so insightful. Thank you all. I’m an adult convert to The Catholic Church from the Baptist church. The Catholic Church is so complete & rich. I cherish it.❤ 182
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@Gieserboys2 months ago This was such an amazing show! Really made me think about why I am the religion I am. I took notes to dig deeper into various issues that were discussed as I am wanting to find where my faith lies. I have said nondenominational for many years but this video made me feel that I should do better and really consider what my faith aligns with. Thank you so much for doing this show👏 ...
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@kateguilfoyle51552 months ago This was a great discussion- congratulations to you all. 1
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@CantStopTheMattWalshlast year Allie is so passionate about her faith and it is refreshing to see someone with so much zeal. However, the longer I listen to Protestant/Catholic debates, Catholicism comes across, as George put it, as "the fullness of truth."
I commend everyone involved for discussing this with love, compassion, civility, and decorum. ... 97
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@alisatourek9176last year Great talk!!
I'm a catholic convert from 1990 & attend the TLM mass at an FSSP parish in Omaha & the only comment I can make from this is that; for a person who believes, no explanation is necessary & for one who does not believe, no explanation will suffice!! I stand by this with my whole protestant family!!
Jesus founded the Catholic church & it has the WHOLE truth, Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it!!
God Bless You all!! ... 43
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@james_isaac4 months ago Literal chills man "He who knew no sin became sin so that We could become the righteousness of god " 4
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@rosw-gd95552 months ago amen Jesus Christ is THE mediator all praise & glory belong to You alone🙏 1
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@dianaswanson5705last year Candace it is so refreshing compared to the regular topics that are discussed with the horrific things going on. I am a cradle Catholic and my husband's family is devout Protestants. I couldn't have married into a better family than his. My husband told me he would never convert and I never pushed him, but his questions challenged me and I became more devout Catholic. He converted 13yrs into our marriage but he only started studying Catholicism because he was worried about my salvation. All of these critical comments..I heard them all of the time. 😊..every time I look to find the answer to a question or address a stereotype it reinforces my conviction.. ... 68
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@ArtLook4Ulast year Wow, this was great to listen to! I'm a Catholic from the start, I never felt the need to explore anything else, even though I did have my times further away from God. For me truth is one and most of things I heard here were obvious, but I loved the way George explained it theologically - so refreshing! Candace, you're a super lucky woman you have by your side a man of such true devotion to our heavenly Father, only a man like this will be best possible husband and father. And I'll pray for Your conversion, because God put George on Your path for a reason - open your heart to understand The Truth you seek so deeply...
Love your work and wish you all the best from Poland 😊 ... 57
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@lucyfraser11455 days ago George is very knowledgeable! Thank you for having him do this debate x
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@Familytoyreview42610 months ago I was baptized and raised Catholic. As a teenager after confirmation I kind of drifted away from the church. As an adult now I completely want to return to Catholicism. I am a strong believer in the faith and I have always through my life prayed and said the rosary. I really loved this conversation. ... 97
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@AvaVonHartelast year This was great! I became Catholic about 2 years ago. I struggled with many of the same questions. With deeper understanding of the Faith, I’ve come to understand things I was blind to before. Jesus used his last words to give us his Mother while he was on the cross. He said to Mary, woman behold your son, in reference to John, and here is your Mother to John. When you seek Jesus she will always be there. If you get lost from him, she will lead the way. Just as any mother would. There’s no rule to venerate Mary, but she was given to us as Our Lady as she is the perfection of Eve. She spoke the loudest yes to God that rings throughout all of history. She deserves her flowers, or better yet, her roses.🌹There is also a phenomenon known as spiritual baptism recognized by the Catholic Church. My priest describes it like trying to find a light switch in a dark room. Baptism by the Church (water) helps light the way. God bless ❤ ... 122
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@ShyvonLux3 months ago Such great information, thank you all!
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@CoraZa11313 weeks ago My understanding is that prayer is from down here up to the heavens ...
My reason for emphasis: Praying "For Me" does not equate to praying "To Me". 1
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@nataliev1311last year I absolutely loved this debate! George explained our faith so well! All I kept thinking was, do not be afraid to call Mary the Mother of God, if you believe that Jesus is God. If Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. ... 133
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@jessmddnlast year George is a class act - love listening to him! Praying for your faith journey, Candace. Thank you for this discussion 226
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@ashandezoysa21333 weeks ago This is an awesome conversation, so much respect for all 3 of you 🙏🙏
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@AnjosdaGuarda2024last year I am Catholic and I love my faith. I love the Virgin Mary. I could listen to George for hours. He s brilliant! 140
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@HeatherEndeavorslast year This conversation has been thought provoking. First time hearing a Catholic thoughtfully express reasons for beliefs. Absolute respect and much food for thought. 173
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@raysofhope46965 months ago Thank you for the debate learned a lot
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@MaryWest-gv8fmlast month I’ve listened to these two conversations multiple times. I love this debate!
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@gabbychalmers861last year Allie Stuckey youve just gained a new follower! Theology on point! 73
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@celestekincaid865310 months ago The way Candace looks at and admires her husband is very beautiful to watch. ❤ 50
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@NightwatchN8last month All a Christian needs to dispell any confusion is a simple "Thus sayeth the Lord" and my bible says "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecclesiastes 9:5 .. So therefore, no need to pray for, or to dead people. ... 2
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@pe.pablohenrique2 months ago Interesting conversation! Congratulations!
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@laurabarnett5650last year I was raised nondenominational Protestant, though many of the circles I move in are Baptist. I honestly enjoyed hearing George’s thoughts immensely. I have never heard such explanations of the Catholic faith, and it gave me a deep respect for his beliefs and those of others like Michael Knowles. I think the Church at large needs to have more respect for each other and trust the Holy Spirit to do His work. We get caught up on too much. ... 120
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@verenice2656last year Grateful to be catholic and to love the Theotokos without having to deemphasize her role. 52
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@shellyscholz12562 months ago Excellent discussion! Nice to see people discussing without defaming or insulting each other! 1
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@doloresdsmith4 months ago I could listen to them talk about this for hours!
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@laurenhuelster775310 months ago This has confirmed so much for me. I converted to Catholicism at 17 and then somehow got distracted with life. Been finding my faith again and this has confirmed my catholic beliefs. I tried several Protestant churches before converting to Catholicism but as an adult was wondering if I still felt the same as I did when younger. I hope they do more of these. ... 80
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@perryellison5255last year In my opinion, Farmer’s final point, about the Church Doctors and Church History, inextricably linked to Christ and His apostles, is an absolute dagger. It simply cannot be refuted or argued.
“Do be deep in history is to cease being Protestant”
~ Archbishop John Henry Newman ... 25